I LOVE ALCOHOL!

"BobintheMtns" (bobinthemtns) 04/15/2016 at 11:17 • Filed to: None

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So I’ve got a ‘07 GTI... Such a great car- I often tell people that it’s the greatest car mankind has ever built. Direct injection, turbo, rad seats, sunroof and a slick 6-speed manual and it absolutely rallys in the snow... I’ve set the cruise control at 140 mph while crossing deserts and it’ll get over 30 mpg (although, not at the same time.. ).

She’s got almost 140,000 miles now. And she’s still going strong. Until about three weeks ago when she developed a misfire when accelerating hard. The general consensus regarding the pulled code pointed towards either a) dead coil, b) bad spark plug or c) carbon buildup fouling the injectors and/or interfering with the valves...

I’ve had coils go bad before and each time they just died. One second you’re running on four cylinders, the next you’re running on three. So I didn’t think it was that. Ditto for the spark plug. Naturally, I was dreading having to tear into the engine to get at the valves or injectors because VW specialty tools....

So I thought I’d see if it might be clogged injectors before dismantling the engine. But I think purchasing a pint of “injector cleaner” for $7 bucks is a rip-off. Ditto for all the various sea-foam variants.

Instead I went to a local gas station that sells E85 and spiked the ~6 gallons of fuel I had in the car with 4 gallons of E85 (only $1.85/gallon!). That gave me a mixture ratio of about 62% gasoline and 38% ethanol. 25 miles later, misfire is gone and the GTI is running smooth!

Fuel alcohols for the Win!!!

The Ghost of Oppo > BobintheMtns 04/15/2016 at 11:22

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I don’t know what is going on here, but I enjoy it.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > BobintheMtns 04/15/2016 at 11:25

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I was really wondering when alcohol was going to be involved lol

jariten1781 > BobintheMtns 04/15/2016 at 11:28

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FWIW I’ve had the coils go out on our GTI multiple times and it was always intermittent and progressive...never cliffed as in your experience. Also had the carbon fouling and flapper in the intake runner cause misfires. Misfires requiring maintenance are a freaking yearly thing on mine. As much as I love the car, I really hate it.

itschrome > BobintheMtns 04/15/2016 at 11:30

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if you got the Ethiopia with $5 you could buy enough bananas to make your own ethanol! but also have you tried going ethanol free?

and 100 more > jariten1781 04/15/2016 at 11:31

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Honest question (my knowledge of VW is basically nada): How does the intake flapper valve cause a misfire?

buford-t-justice > BobintheMtns 04/15/2016 at 11:35

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RallyDarkstrike - Fan of 2-cyl FIATs, Eastern Bloc & Kei cars > BobintheMtns 04/15/2016 at 11:39

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Coils have always died intermittently on my family’s Accents. My brother had one go, and mom just had one go on her car....took months before it was bad enough to actually replace in both cases!

jariten1781 > and 100 more 04/15/2016 at 11:40

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Well, most of them would jam open and cause a lean misfire on cold start/idle, and others would fall apart and actually foul up the valve train causing all sorts of issues, but a misfire was most common. Mine was jammed open.

and 100 more > jariten1781 04/15/2016 at 11:46

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I ask because my car has flappers in the intake runners, and they failed, and you literally couldn’t tell except for the MIL on the dash. I guess in a turbocharged application, however, it makes a bigger difference.

Party-vi > BobintheMtns 04/15/2016 at 11:46

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“I’ve set the cruise control at 140 mph”

Top speed (governor limited): 130 mph

iSureWilll > Party-vi 04/15/2016 at 11:47

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lol

iSureWilll > MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner 04/15/2016 at 11:48

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high mileage VW - Need alcohol to cope

Steve in Manhattan > Party-vi 04/15/2016 at 11:50

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Got out of a ticket once (Rabbit diesel) by joking that the speed he thought he had me at (81 in a 65) could only be achieved by dropping the car out of a plane. If you crack that cop veneer ....

Party-vi > Steve in Manhattan 04/15/2016 at 11:51

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I was once able to get my 1988 Cherokee to 91.7mph. With a tailwind. Down a hill. Not even joking a little.

BobintheMtns > Party-vi 04/15/2016 at 11:55

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I’ve read the gov kicks in at 147. But regardless, limited at 130 is bullshit. I promise, I’ve hit 145 in mine on several occations.

MontegoMan562 is a Capri RS Owner > iSureWilll 04/15/2016 at 11:57

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don’t worry there’s a The Cask post coming later today!

BobintheMtns > jariten1781 04/15/2016 at 11:57

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The two times I’ve lost coils, both times it was like a light switch... But bummer to hear yours is lemonesque.... Mine (knock on wood) has been the most solid car I’ve ever owned by a long shot....

Leon711 > Party-vi 04/15/2016 at 11:59

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Euro models top out at 146mph, I can’t see why the US ones would be limited to 130.

Leon711 > BobintheMtns 04/15/2016 at 12:02

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May try the ethanol myself. Make it a bit smoother.

Steve in Manhattan > Party-vi 04/15/2016 at 12:03

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Those were not known for their great drag coefficient.

BobintheMtns > Leon711 04/15/2016 at 12:09

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Do it. The stuff is amazing for cleaning out the fuel lines and injectors—

Jake Huitt - Two Alfas And A Nissan, Not A Single Running Car > Party-vi 04/15/2016 at 12:21

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I got my sentra to 116 down a 6% grade and a tailwind. I’ve never been so scared.

Party-vi > BobintheMtns 04/15/2016 at 13:24

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Aight .

Party-vi > Leon711 04/15/2016 at 13:26

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Because gubment. Stock limiter was supposed to kick in at 130mph.

Leon711 > Party-vi 04/15/2016 at 13:40

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The darn gubment bin takin my em pee aitchs

WasGTIthenGTOthenNOVAnowbacktoGTI > BobintheMtns 04/15/2016 at 13:54

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Makes me miss my 07. Now I’m sad. Jerk.

BobintheMtns > Party-vi 04/15/2016 at 14:20

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Once again, don’t know what to tell you, but I’ve done well over that in mine. If the car got 30+ mpg and did only 130 mph I’d still consider that damn impressive with zero reason to embellish its capabilities.

I bought mine used, so perhaps the original owner chipped it and I’ve never realized it ( highly doubt that).. Or maybe VW lied to regulators about it’s limiter— but we all know that VW would never lie to the Feds.. But I promise, it’s faster than 130.

PS - just texted my best friend who also has a stock gti- asked him what’s the fastest he’s seen: “ 135-140 " was his reply.... I told him of the discussion of a 130 limiter and his reply was: “ Not mine. I was cruising 133 two days ago ”.

So, I don’t know what to tell you man... either the 130 limiter is bullshit or mine and my buddy’s stock gti’s are the only ones that some how missed out on that... but both of our gti’s are faster than 130.

BobintheMtns > WasGTIthenGTOthenNOVAnowbacktoGTI 04/15/2016 at 14:24

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Sorry bro... as someone once said to me, “never sell your toys.”

Party-vi > BobintheMtns 04/15/2016 at 14:25

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I’m wondering how optimistic your speedos are, or if there is an inaccuracy at speed in your vehicles. Still, if someone else mentioned that the euro GTI can hit 146mph, then there’s no reason yours couldn’t as well. I know the E46 speedo is a little speed-happy at higher velocity.

BobintheMtns > Party-vi 04/15/2016 at 14:34

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Well, I wouldn’t be surprised if the speedo was a bit optimistic, pretty much most speedo’s are... but I’d assume any limiter will be linked to the speedo.

So if there was a 130 limiter, the limiter is not gonna say “ well, the speedo is 5% off, so I’ll let the car go to 137 before I cut in ” It’s gonna cut in at the indicated 130, even it the car might actually only be going 125....

BobintheMtns > Steve in Manhattan 04/15/2016 at 14:44

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Buddy of mine in college had a early 80's diesel rabbit.... Amazing car.. it was the go-to climbing roadtrip machine for a while.. Didn’t get you there fast, but it did get you there— and for only about $6 in fuel (round-trip).

Party-vi > BobintheMtns 04/15/2016 at 14:48

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I mean, they did lie about diesel emissions so that’s possible there was no limiter.

BobintheMtns > itschrome 04/15/2016 at 14:51

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I spent over a decade working in synthetic motor fuels. And I think fuel alcohols are really beneficial. So, no, I’ve never felt the need to jump on the “pure-gas” bandwagon.

BobintheMtns > Party-vi 04/15/2016 at 14:57

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I dont know... I was poking around vw vortex after your first post, and some of the folks there were saying that their gti’s were clearly limited to 130.... So maybe some got the “North American” limiter and some arrived with the Euro limiter....(?) I don’t have an explanation... But mine’s faster (‘07 MkV) and so is my buddy’s (‘11 MKVI)...

itschrome > BobintheMtns 04/15/2016 at 15:09

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word, I only ever had one engine that really even seemed to give a shit on that. That being my Northstars. they just ran smoother and was more responsive on the non-alcohol, also seemed to get slightly better MPG. every other non-Northstar equipped car I’ve owned could give a rats ass. I mean generally Alcohol is better than just pure gas isn’t it in terms of performance? I believe it’s less efficient as far as over all MPG on it’s own though right but gallon for gallon burns more efficient in the sense that it burns more thoroughly, correct? I’m probably wrong.

But more to the point where are you on the Banana based Ethanol future?

Steve in Manhattan > BobintheMtns 04/15/2016 at 15:10

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This was a ‘79, before they started building them in PA. It vas very Cherman!

BobintheMtns > itschrome 04/15/2016 at 15:25

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Lower compression motors will see less performance benefits from alcohols... so I’m not surprised the northstars liked it. Whoops! edited to add, I misread your post and thought you said the NS’s liked the alcohols....

And alcohols, because they had lower btu’s, one should see lower mpg- but in lab testing we’d often see higher mpg’s using alcohol blends. We surmised that it was because you’d get a more efficient/complete burn due to the oxygen within the ethanol molecules.. but after about a 25% alcohol blend, we’d see mpg fall off to where you’d expect them by looking at the btu count..

But alcohol blends vs pure gas- it’s not even close- with the blends you can get a much higher octane rating- which makes it so you can run at a higher compression and tune for a tighter stoichiometry... and also the detergent benefits of having alcohol in the fuel system (as noted above) are a huge benefit.

Regarding bananas... yeah... unless it’s Brazilian sugarcane, biofuels don’t (and probably won’t ever) pencil out.... we were actually looking to convert coal and natural gas into syn-fuels... not corn or any of that bullshit.... (although, we were looking at literal bullshit too).

itschrome > BobintheMtns 04/15/2016 at 15:39

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ok, that makes sense and kind of matches where I was thinking already. Thank’s for the break down.

Now when you say lower compression, in terms of what you do where would that lay? I ask because the N* ran a 10.3:1 (pre-2000) and 10:1 (post 2000). I always assumed because of the higher compression they were happier with out the Ethanol. I really don’t have an explanation for why they ran better off the booze, but with tank of boozed up gas they get noisy and feel less peppy. they also seem to idle a bit harder and there was a definite notice in MPG (ok about 2.3 mpg less than on the pure Dino juice) enough that it kept me paying the $0.12 differnce on the price. which really brakes even overall cost wise with ethanol blend but they seemed happier.

What about that Algae they have been playing with. I thought that was showing promise, at least for biodiesel. but that’s probably a whole different animal that a gasoline replacement like Ethanol. I nevcer really understood how they planned to have a totally renewable growable gas source any ways. Just from the stand point of cost of production vs return of product it seems to me that there would never be a way to produce enough at a cost effective price point. Brazil being it’s own thing given that they are already heavily backed by sugar cane any ways so they have the means. But corn is resource needy, that makes no sense. That switch grass or what ever it was they were pimp’in isn’t dense enough in sugars or produces enough per acre to be useful any ways. Ultimately I think renewable energy production (or at least less destructive means of electricity production) and electric vehicles are the future. we just need a over all rebuild and design of our global electrical grid and production means.... yeah that will happen soon.... maybe some day.

BobintheMtns > itschrome 04/15/2016 at 16:32

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I don’t really have an exact compression ratio were we could point and say “this spot! This is where the alcohol benefits start.” But like I said, with a higher octane rating that the alcohols bring, you can tune a motor much tighter without having to worry about pinging etc.... Turbo-charged applications really see big gains...

The algae thing, like biofuels, isn’t a viable solution either... it comes down to volumes. Think how much gas each of us uses a day.. now think about how fast corn grows.. or algae blooms... In the time you burnt 10 gallons, that corn stalk maybe grew a millimeter. Ditto for algae. The oils from the algae they’re making now sell for about $50-75/gallon. Not a viable alternative. And increasing the scale to meet the daily needs just isn’t gonna happen....

The thing with corn ethanol is that after you grow the corn and then ferment it, the ratio is like 8% alcohol to 92% water/mash. You then have to boil out all that water.. very, very, very energy intensive. In brazil they have all the sugar cane stalks left over after pressing them. Because brazil is hot as shit, the piles of cane stalks dry out under the sun very quickly- and burning those stalks is what they use as fuel to boil the water (versus natural gas here in US) to separate the alcohol from the mash.... so that (very energy intensive step) can be done very cheap there.... hence why their bio-ethanol industry actually pencils out. Brazil also only has a tiny, tiny percentage of the amount of cars as America, so scale isn’t a big issue there either....

The future is electric, heavily augmented by (sigh..) traditional gasoline and diesel....

Nauraushaun > BobintheMtns 04/16/2016 at 11:20

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My friend has one of those. I drove it, it was different to anything I’d ever felt. IIRC it was like a regular turbo 4, but with less lag and such smooth delivery you’d wonder how you hit 130km/hr so fast. Wonderful though.